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But one thing that stands out to me are the reports of people who had fallen and other people just actively ignored them and stepped over them and kept raging. Like, the total lack of concert etiquette and watching out for those around you just astounds me. And I’m not talking about people on the other side who didn’t know what was happening. I’m talking about people who saw someone go down and STEPPED OVER OR ON THEM to move up a spot.
I've been beating the drum about the increasing narcissism and complete disregard for everyone else around them from increasingly younger festival crowds for years, now, and every time I do, there's a whole bunch of "KIDS WILL BE KIDS LOOK AT THIS OLD MAN YELLING AT CLOUD." We had a mini-riot after they called off Sunday of Governors Ball in 2019, leading to a bunch of navel-gazing about how the festival needed to be 18+ moving forward that was promptly forgotten during the pandemic, but it's not hard, in my opinion, to draw a line from that event to this. I saw assholes on reddit posting in the immediate aftermath of this thing about how, where they were in the crowd, they didn't notice any of the bad stuff going on, and also, they got great footage of the show, so it's a win.
I dunno, man. Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should, but there's a way to do it without it resulting in injury, damage, or death, and we seem to have lost the plot on that, to a degree.
something like this literally happens once a generation - see, e.g., Pearl Jam/Roskilde in 2000, the Who in Cinci in 1979, etc. trying to use it to support your weird and ongoing "young people shouldn't get to enjoy concerts" angle is gross and stupid.
blaming the crowd in any way is insane to me. out of all the culpable parties, the crowd is at the very bottom of the list. these people didn't die because a bunch of zoomers were being jerks, they died because of shitty event planning, bad venue design, lack of adequate security, and (to some extent) the performer who sought to create that frenzied atmosphere.
I've been beating the drum about the increasing narcissism and complete disregard for everyone else around them from increasingly younger festival crowds for years, now, and every time I do, there's a whole bunch of "KIDS WILL BE KIDS LOOK AT THIS OLD MAN YELLING AT CLOUD." We had a mini-riot after they called off Sunday of Governors Ball in 2019, leading to a bunch of navel-gazing about how the festival needed to be 18+ moving forward that was promptly forgotten during the pandemic, but it's not hard, in my opinion, to draw a line from that event to this. I saw assholes on reddit posting in the immediate aftermath of this thing about how, where they were in the crowd, they didn't notice any of the bad stuff going on, and also, they got great footage of the show, so it's a win.
I dunno, man. Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should, but there's a way to do it without it resulting in injury, damage, or death, and we seem to have lost the plot on that, to a degree.
something like this literally happens once a generation - see, e.g., Pearl Jam/Roskilde in 2000, the Who in Cinci in 1979, etc. trying to use it to support your weird and ongoing "young people shouldn't get to enjoy concerts" angle is gross and stupid.
blaming the crowd in any way is insane to me. out of all the culpable parties, the crowd is at the very bottom of the list. these people didn't die because a bunch of zoomers were being jerks, they died because of shitty event planning, bad venue design, lack of adequate security, and (to some extent) the performer who sought to create that frenzied atmosphere.
You're completely misrepresenting my point, which is weird because I explicitly say "Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should" in my post, but OK.
I agree with all the people you want to blame in your second paragraph. I just think it's possible for all of that to be true AND for it to be true that a lot of people in that crowd were behaving in a dangerous way that contributed to the problem, as pointed out by Monie . I don't see why those things are mutually exclusive.
something like this literally happens once a generation - see, e.g., Pearl Jam/Roskilde in 2000, the Who in Cinci in 1979, etc. trying to use it to support your weird and ongoing "young people shouldn't get to enjoy concerts" angle is gross and stupid.
blaming the crowd in any way is insane to me. out of all the culpable parties, the crowd is at the very bottom of the list. these people didn't die because a bunch of zoomers were being jerks, they died because of shitty event planning, bad venue design, lack of adequate security, and (to some extent) the performer who sought to create that frenzied atmosphere.
You're completely misrepresenting my point, which is weird because I explicitly say "Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should" in my post, but OK.
I agree with all the people you want to blame in your second paragraph. I just think it's possible for all of that to be true AND for it to be true that a lot of people in that crowd were behaving in a dangerous way that contributed to the problem, as pointed out by Monie . I don't see why those things are mutually exclusive.
you're trying to link the "dangerous crowd" to some sort of generational shift in concert etiquitte, which is B.S. and the same nonsense you always sling around here.
edit: like, this is straight up disinformation with a complete misunderstanding of how the law works. in order to insulate yourself from liability vis a vis a settlement, you need to have a signed release of all claims; that is, you can't just hand someone some money when you hit them with your car and keep them from suing you. so unless there's an explicit release which each person agreeing to any of this signs and executes (and you definitely can't just hide it in the fine print), it doesn't mean anything. i suppose defense lawyers could argue that anything such as funeral costs, paid therapy, etc. counts as a collateral source payment and could then argue for a proportional reduction in damages, but it's not like it would really impact anyone's bottom line.
You're completely misrepresenting my point, which is weird because I explicitly say "Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should" in my post, but OK.
I agree with all the people you want to blame in your second paragraph. I just think it's possible for all of that to be true AND for it to be true that a lot of people in that crowd were behaving in a dangerous way that contributed to the problem, as pointed out by Monie . I don't see why those things are mutually exclusive.
you're trying to link the "dangerous crowd" to some sort of generational shift in concert etiquitte, which is B.S. and the same nonsense you always sling around here.
All I can speak to is my own experience in going to festivals and concerts over the past decade, and yeah, I've experienced a shift. I'm not saying people being assholes at shows is new or exclusive to the young, but it has felt, to me, like the cohort among crowds who doesn't give a shit about anything communal at these events has gotten louder and more dominant over that stretch. Maybe I've just had bad luck and ended up in a whole lot of shitty crowds. I don't know. I'm not really in the mood to argue about whether I should believe you or my own lying eyes, at the moment, so feel free to have the last word, if you want. This whole thing is just too depressing and I shouldn't have even waded in.
you're trying to link the "dangerous crowd" to some sort of generational shift in concert etiquitte, which is B.S. and the same nonsense you always sling around here.
All I can speak to is my own experience in going to festivals and concerts over the past decade, and yeah, I've experienced a shift. I'm not saying people being assholes at shows is new or exclusive to the young, but it has felt, to me, like the cohort among crowds who doesn't give a shit about anything communal at these events has gotten louder and more dominant over that stretch. Maybe I've just had bad luck and ended up in a whole lot of shitty crowds. I don't know. I'm not really in the mood to argue about whether I should believe you or my own lying eyes, at the moment, so feel free to have the last word, if you want. This whole thing is just too depressing and I shouldn't have even waded in.
"the scene changed, man" - everybody aging out of their youth, ever
you're trying to link the "dangerous crowd" to some sort of generational shift in concert etiquitte, which is B.S. and the same nonsense you always sling around here.
All I can speak to is my own experience in going to festivals and concerts over the past decade, and yeah, I've experienced a shift. I'm not saying people being assholes at shows is new or exclusive to the young, but it has felt, to me, like the cohort among crowds who doesn't give a shit about anything communal at these events has gotten louder and more dominant over that stretch. Maybe I've just had bad luck and ended up in a whole lot of shitty crowds. I don't know. I'm not really in the mood to argue about whether I should believe you or my own lying eyes, at the moment, so feel free to have the last word, if you want. This whole thing is just too depressing and I shouldn't have even waded in.
youre not wrong, especially post pandemic. im only 23 but ive regularly gone to shows since 2014 and ive noticed a shift as well. theres much more of a lack of respect and care from ppl for their fellow human and its very sad. its not even necessarily a young crowd too, even like 30+ ppl have been more awful to me. but yeah post pandemic ive had way more bad crowds than friendly ones. especially compared to like 2018-19. that being said thundercats crowd yesterday was wonderful 10/10
Last Edit: Nov 10, 2021 9:54:33 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by Larry Farnsworth on Nov 10, 2021 9:58:44 GMT -5
i started seeing Phish shows when I was 15. i remember seeing them again when i was like 22/23 and thinking how much worse and more disrespectful the crowd was, all these punk ass kids.
the point is, i was dumb and wrong then, just like you guys are now.
But one thing that stands out to me are the reports of people who had fallen and other people just actively ignored them and stepped over them and kept raging. Like, the total lack of concert etiquette and watching out for those around you just astounds me. And I’m not talking about people on the other side who didn’t know what was happening. I’m talking about people who saw someone go down and STEPPED OVER OR ON THEM to move up a spot.
I've been beating the drum about the increasing narcissism and complete disregard for everyone else around them from increasingly younger festival crowds for years, now, and every time I do, there's a whole bunch of "KIDS WILL BE KIDS LOOK AT THIS OLD MAN YELLING AT CLOUD." We had a mini-riot after they called off Sunday of Governors Ball in 2019, leading to a bunch of navel-gazing about how the festival needed to be 18+ moving forward that was promptly forgotten during the pandemic, but it's not hard, in my opinion, to draw a line from that event to this. I saw assholes on reddit posting in the immediate aftermath of this thing about how, where they were in the crowd, they didn't notice any of the bad stuff going on, and also, they got great footage of the show, so it's a win.
I dunno, man. Kids are going to wild out at shows, and they should, but there's a way to do it without it resulting in injury, damage, or death, and we seem to have lost the plot on that, to a degree.
At the Tool/Primus show on halloween a few years ago there was a huge surge when Tool started and I got really cramped up in the crowd. couldn't move my arms and was just trying to stay on my feet, swaying with the movement of the crowd. My glasses fell off so I couldn't see and I started really panicking. I ended up passing out. Luckily my friend and a couple other guys helped me up and out of there to some fresh air and I was able to watch the rest of the show (from way in the back). I came to as they were helping me through the crowd, a bunch of people were following our line to get out of there. Other people in the crowd were bitching at us for cutting through getting in their sightlines. One dude got in my face and was yelling at me because I passed out? It was pretty hostile and scary. The rest of the show was fine, I listened from the back (because my glasses fell off and got crushed so I couldn't really see) but it was definitely a scary moment for me. I can't imagine what it was like at astroworld. not being able to move because of masses of people pushing and shoving, just closing in around you, is terrifying.
seen way too many grown ass adults do that type of very unsafe behavior.
"the scene changed, man" - everybody aging out of their youth, ever
Don’t make this solely an ageism argument. I’ve been going to concerts longer than most of you have been alive. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is it all on the concertgoer? No. I am sure this could and did happen years ago. The difference is we did not have 24 hour news and the internet to spread misinformation.
I was lucky to miss most of the chaos, but I do distinctly remember someone’s foot in the middle of my back at a NIN show. That’s when I knew it was time to move back.
Incivility and entitlement are a society issue. Not an age issue. You have no further to look than January 6th. Most of those goons were middle age or much older.
Post by 3post1jack1 on Nov 10, 2021 10:09:19 GMT -5
regarding crowds changing, i'm not saying it's true or untrue, but i don't think our lived experience is a useful barometer. i'm a 40 year old with 25 years of live music experience, and sure from my perspective things have changed. but then again when i was younger i was likely to be on a thousand hits of acid at a show, and so likely to be picturing everything as love and light, and thinking i was treating everyone with respect and everyone around me was looking at me and smiling and admiring my spiritual freedom, but in reality i was probably stumbling around swinging my arms wildly and dropping trash on the ground and generally being a piece of shit with a little vomit on my shirt.
obviously i was a big drug guy, but even if you weren't a big drug guy things look different as you get older. my body and mind are just less tolerant of discomfort and get tired more easily, so unfortunately it's more likely for me to be annoyed by things, for fear in one of it's manifestations to work itself to the conscious level. when i'm aware of this tendency it's easier for me to look at a contemporary bonnaroo crowd and notice it's not drastically different than when i was young.
"the scene changed, man" - everybody aging out of their youth, ever
Don’t make this solely an ageism argument. I’ve been going to concerts longer than most of you have been alive. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is it all on the concertgoer? No. I am sure this could and did happen years ago. The difference is we did not have 24 hour news and the internet to spread misinformation.
I was lucky to miss most of the chaos, but I do distinctly remember someone’s foot in the middle of my back at a NIN show. That’s when I knew it was time to move back.
Incivility and entitlement are a society issue. Not an age issue. You have no further to look than January 6th. Most of those goons were middle age or much older.
I really feel bad for having kicked off this whole discussion.
The lesson, as it is with most things, is that I'm an idiot and should generally keep my damn idiot mouth shut. Apologies to all involved.
All I can speak to is my own experience in going to festivals and concerts over the past decade, and yeah, I've experienced a shift. I'm not saying people being assholes at shows is new or exclusive to the young, but it has felt, to me, like the cohort among crowds who doesn't give a shit about anything communal at these events has gotten louder and more dominant over that stretch. Maybe I've just had bad luck and ended up in a whole lot of shitty crowds. I don't know. I'm not really in the mood to argue about whether I should believe you or my own lying eyes, at the moment, so feel free to have the last word, if you want. This whole thing is just too depressing and I shouldn't have even waded in.
"the scene changed, man" - everybody aging out of their youth, ever
"That's what I hate about these kids at concerts, man. I get older, they stay the same age."
Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Nov 10, 2021 10:16:47 GMT -5
Anyway, how about we try to limit misinformation in this thread. If you’re going to post a story, read the whole thing not the headline. If it’s a tweet, is the person saying something based on primary source information (i.e. do they have a copy of the release Travis is supposedly making people sign? Better yet did they post a picture of it?)
Don’t make this solely an ageism argument. I’ve been going to concerts longer than most of you have been alive. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is it all on the concertgoer? No. I am sure this could and did happen years ago. The difference is we did not have 24 hour news and the internet to spread misinformation.
I was lucky to miss most of the chaos, but I do distinctly remember someone’s foot in the middle of my back at a NIN show. That’s when I knew it was time to move back.
Incivility and entitlement are a society issue. Not an age issue. You have no further to look than January 6th. Most of those goons were middle age or much older.
I really feel bad for having kicked off this whole discussion.
The lesson, as it is with most things, is that I'm an idiot and should generally keep my damn idiot mouth shut. Apologies to all involved.
No conversation is stupid if done with respect and a willingness to listen to others opinions.
"the scene changed, man" - everybody aging out of their youth, ever
Don’t make this solely an ageism argument. I’ve been going to concerts longer than most of you have been alive. Have the dynamics changed? Yes. Is it all on the concertgoer? No. I am sure this could and did happen years ago. The difference is we did not have 24 hour news and the internet to spread misinformation.
I was lucky to miss most of the chaos, but I do distinctly remember someone’s foot in the middle of my back at a NIN show. That’s when I knew it was time to move back.
Incivility and entitlement are a society issue. Not an age issue. You have no further to look than January 6th. Most of those goons were middle age or much older.
my point is that believing that the scene around us is changing, as opposed to us being the ones who change, is an absolute routine thing that nearly everyone goes through as they age out of the respective demographic. it's not an agism thing, i'm old as shit and i went through it too.
I keep coming back to how similar this all is to the Insurrection. so many similarities up and down.
I do think the fans set the tone by bum rushing security first thing when the gates opened, and I'm sure to a degree people working security were like fuck these fans they clearly don't want our help, but they were definitely whipped into that attitude by Travis and this feedback loop of he asks they give.
I think the fans are lower on the blame list, but if they could be identified the people who first broke down the metal detectors and gates, the people who interfered with the ambulance, should probably be charged with something.
I'm hoping that going forward people will take this as an opportunity to understand that every party in this but the fans is in it for money, and our collective best interests might not be looked out for, and understand that people need space and you don't have to rush the stage and push past others. People should have the awareness to not have to be told how to act by the artist.
if anything I'd argue that, at least from a safety perspective, the bigger corporate ones are probably better. the institutional ones are pretty much run like well oiled machines, they have this kind of stuff down to a science and you're less likely to see this stuff happen at Coachella, Bonnaroo, etc.
Post by Pepe Silvia on Nov 10, 2021 10:44:46 GMT -5
just watched through that series of the EMS guys tik toks. definitely weird of the guy to put the blame so squarely on the crowd.
the root of the issue and main fault clearly falls on the higher ups involved. everyone with the power to pull the plug/delay for a few hours should have done so the moment the gates were rushed and broken down. the festival was likely already oversold, and packing in tons of more people who aren't even security checked and could have anything on em, is beyond stupid and such an obvious recipe for disaster.
whatever stage manager or event coordinator that was alerted by police of the mass casualty incident should have fucking run on stage and told trav what was happening. not let the set finish for another 40 minutes. that shit just actually baffles me. i feel like whoever was in charge in that regard was probably just scared shitless of trav and didn't want to get fired for ruining the v i b e.
and clearly a lot of the responsibility falls on trav. dude encourages this shit all the time. even YT promotion for astroworld had footage of people rushing gates.
i agree with Juggs that the crowd should be on the bottom of the list of people to blame, but a percentage of them still belong on the list. can't ignore that there were people fucking climbing EMS carts and dancing on top as they're trying to transport unconscious bodies. cant ignore the people who were booing the guy and girl in that one video for trying to stop the show.
as someone who doesn't yet identify as "old as shit" (23) , i think im unbias enough to say that this upcoming generation does have their own set of issues. thats not to say shit hasn't been fucked in the past as well, but there is something about the celebrity craze hype culture that we're currently living in that negatively affects the way people act in situations like this.
