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how dare we place such a high burden of proof on people bombing a hospital?
You're missing the point. Why is the IDF held to a different burden of proof than Hamas?
because on the international stage, Hamas is a known terrorist organization whereas Israel is legitimate state. Terrorist organizations don’t get asked to prove themselves, because the assumption is they are doing indefensible things. The assumption for states is that they abide in a more transparent and ethical manner.
IDF says the hospital is a base, Hamas says it's not. Why are you holding the IDF to a different burden of proof?
Hamas AND civilians including medical professionals have said it is false. So are you saying we should believe terrorist group IDF over innocent Palestinian civilians??
It's also well documented that civilians in Gaza are afraid to openly speak out against Hamas. They are essentially holding the entire territory hostage, so no, I don't think we can take everything you hear from civilians there at face value.
Again, there is plenty of evidence that Hamas is using Al Shifa hospital as a base, which even superfurryanimal was willing to acknowledge. You seem to be ignoring that though.
You're missing the point. Why is the IDF held to a different burden of proof than Hamas?
because on the international stage, Hamas is a known terrorist organization whereas Israel is legitimate state. Terrorist organizations don’t get asked to prove themselves, because the assumption is they are doing indefensible things. The assumption for states is that they abide in a more transparent and ethical manner.
So should we trust Hamas when they say they are not using the hospital as a base?
because on the international stage, Hamas is a known terrorist organization whereas Israel is legitimate state. Terrorist organizations don’t get asked to prove themselves, because the assumption is they are doing indefensible things. The assumption for states is that they abide in a more transparent and ethical manner.
So should we trust Hamas when they say they are not using the hospital as a base?
no, we should make Israel prove they are and attempt to take actions to eliminate it that minimize civilian casualties rather than just indiscriminately bombing
While it's logical that Hamas would use hospitals to protect themselves from a far more advanced military, Israel has never had much independent evidence that this is an actually a thing that is happening. At least to the level being stated. You can also find denials from doctors and aid groups that this is happening. We, in fact, don't know if they have a base under Al Shifa. We know that allegations and witness statements point to Hamas using the actual hospital grounds for interrogations and torture in past conflicts. There are also reports of Hamas hiding in medical staff clothing around the hospital. In past wars, there is proof that they've hidden themselves in emergency vehicles. A lot of the more damming statements you can find come from the IDF and the State Department. Neither of whom should be taken at face value.
I think there's enough evidence to suggest they use hospitals. Just to be clear. But the fact is we don't know enough to state that they are using Al Shifa or any other as a base. In my opinion, we certainly don't know enough to justify what's taking place at these locations.
Totally with everything you’re saying. I was just trying to get him answer the question on the basis of morality.
I get you. I was more just adding to what you said cause several people have stated it as a fact. It could be true but I'd say the truth is somewhere in between.
Hamas AND civilians including medical professionals have said it is false. So are you saying we should believe terrorist group IDF over innocent Palestinian civilians??
It's also well documented that civilians in Gaza are afraid to openly speak out against Hamas. They are essentially holding the entire territory hostage, so no, I don't think we can take everything you hear from civilians there at face value.
Again, there is plenty of evidence that Hamas is using Al Shifa hospital as a base, which even superfurryanimal was willing to acknowledge. You seem to be ignoring that though.
You're missing the point. Why is the IDF held to a different burden of proof than Hamas?
because on the international stage, Hamas is a known terrorist organization whereas Israel is legitimate state. Terrorist organizations don’t get asked to prove themselves, because the assumption is they are doing indefensible things. The assumption for states is that they abide in a more transparent and ethical manner.
To be fair, Isreal has been doing indefensible things since the beginning are are an illegitimate state so it aint really to surprising they are doing a genocide.
To ask Israel to act in a ethical manner isn't a possibility.
So should we trust Hamas when they say they are not using the hospital as a base?
no, we should make Israel prove they are and attempt to take actions to eliminate it that minimize civilian casualties rather than just indiscriminately bombing
So should we trust Hamas when they say they are not using the hospital as a base?
no, we should make Israel prove they are and attempt to take actions to eliminate it that minimize civilian casualties rather than just indiscriminately bombing
Israel could use their supposed humanitarian corridors to help transfer patients out of these places at a more reasonable rate. Like if they cared at all they could call for a halt in hostilities to remove intensive care patients and the premature babies that need ventilators and special care. That's a better shot for them to survive than having them left in a hospital with no power and little to no supplies. If Hamas attacks these vehicles that just proves Israel's point about them.
What's the downside besides Israel simply not giving a fuck? If Hamas can escape their Bond lair under the hospital they've likely already done it. Again, Al Shifa has been an accused HQ for like a decade. If Hamas is capable of moving supplies and themselves from this specific location they've probably already did so.
no, we should make Israel prove they are and attempt to take actions to eliminate it that minimize civilian casualties rather than just indiscriminately bombing
Israel could use their supposed humanitarian corridors to help transfer patients out of these places at a more reasonable rate. Like if they cared at all they could call for a halt in hostilities to remove intensive care patients and the premature babies that need ventilators and special care. That's a better shot for them to survive than having them left in a hospital with no power and little to no supplies. If Hamas attacks these vehicles that just proves Israel's point about them.
What's the downside besides Israel simply not giving a fuck? If Hamas can escape their Bond lair under the hospital they've likely already done it. Again, Al Shifa has been an accused HQ for like a decade. If Hamas is capable of moving supplies and themselves from this specific location they've probably already did so.
The reason they don't do this is because in the eyes of Isreal, everyone in Gaza is Hamas.
If they outright said "were going to bomb every Palestinian in the strip" they would loose government support funds. So they need to be smooth about it and say "we are going to target Hamas"
no, we should make Israel prove they are and attempt to take actions to eliminate it that minimize civilian casualties rather than just indiscriminately bombing
How would you suggest they do that?
Ah yeah, because it’s not like Mossad and Shin Bet have ever conducted counter-terrorism actions or even assassinations over the last 70 years…
Post by abefroman1 on Nov 14, 2023 11:34:29 GMT -5
Let's say the "Hamas is using children in hospitals as human shields" stuff is true, doesn't that actually say more about the IDF that using children as human shields isn't enough of a deterrent from bombing them?
Hamas AND civilians including medical professionals have said it is false. So are you saying we should believe terrorist group IDF over innocent Palestinian civilians??
It's also well documented that civilians in Gaza are afraid to openly speak out against Hamas. They are essentially holding the entire territory hostage, so no, I don't think we can take everything you hear from civilians there at face value.
ah dang, are Gaza civilians getting thrown in jail and beaten on the street for speaking out against Hamas? :/
oh wait, no. thats Israeli civilians who are asking for ceasefire. they're the ones being jailed and beaten, at the hands of their own govt/military. my bad, i got them confused.
Considering you've found the need to respond to my threads as if you are threatened by me I offer you some peace my confused counterpart. May you find peace in your restless soul.
It's also well documented that civilians in Gaza are afraid to openly speak out against Hamas. They are essentially holding the entire territory hostage, so no, I don't think we can take everything you hear from civilians there at face value.
ah dang, are Gaza civilians getting thrown in jail and beaten on the street for speaking out against Hamas? :/
oh wait, no. thats Israeli civilians who are asking for ceasefire. they're the ones being jailed and beaten, at the hands of their own govt/military. my bad, i got them confused.
Jailed or beaten if they're lucky. Execution is much more likely.
ok cool so they've got video showing there's been people down in the basement, maybe Hamas - lets even say "likely Hamas."
but uhhh....clearly it has been abandoned. no one is down there now, certainly no Hamas militants. so why exactly do they continue to attack the hospital if Hamas has fled from the premise and they're able to just waltz into the basement like this and take video? do they really think this video is going to convince people that they should be bombing the hospital when the supposed Hamas HQ is ABANDONED?
Considering you've found the need to respond to my threads as if you are threatened by me I offer you some peace my confused counterpart. May you find peace in your restless soul.
Israel could use their supposed humanitarian corridors to help transfer patients out of these places at a more reasonable rate. Like if they cared at all they could call for a halt in hostilities to remove intensive care patients and the premature babies that need ventilators and special care. That's a better shot for them to survive than having them left in a hospital with no power and little to no supplies. If Hamas attacks these vehicles that just proves Israel's point about them.
What's the downside besides Israel simply not giving a fuck? If Hamas can escape their Bond lair under the hospital they've likely already done it. Again, Al Shifa has been an accused HQ for like a decade. If Hamas is capable of moving supplies and themselves from this specific location they've probably already did so.
The reason they don't do this is because in the eyes of Isreal, everyone in Gaza is Hamas.
If they outright said "were going to bomb every Palestinian in the strip" they would loose government support funds. So they need to be smooth about it and say "we are going to target Hamas"
ok cool so they've got video showing there's been people down in the basement, maybe Hamas - lets even say "likely Hamas."
but uhhh....clearly it has been abandoned. no one is down there now, certainly no Hamas militants. so why exactly do they continue to attack the hospital if Hamas has fled from the premise and they're able to just waltz into the basement like this and take video? do they really think this video is going to convince people that they should be bombing the hospital when the supposed Hamas HQ is ABANDONED?
i do appreciate NYT expressing some well-deserved skepticism here though:
"The six-minute video contained a series of assertions that could not be independently verified, and evidence whose provenance similarly could not be confirmed.
For its part, the Gazan health ministry said the basement rooms shown were used as shelters “for those fleeing airstrikes. The bathroom shown is a necessity."
but Pale Horse says the claims are to believed, so that should be all that we need!
Considering you've found the need to respond to my threads as if you are threatened by me I offer you some peace my confused counterpart. May you find peace in your restless soul.
ok cool so they've got video showing there's been people down in the basement, maybe Hamas - lets even say "likely Hamas."
but uhhh....clearly it has been abandoned. no one is down there now, certainly no Hamas militants. so why exactly do they continue to attack the hospital if Hamas has fled from the premise and they're able to just waltz into the basement like this and take video? do they really think this video is going to convince people that they should be bombing the hospital when the supposed Hamas HQ is ABANDONED?
Love the moment the dude is pointing at dates on a paper saying the Arabic letters are names of hostages.. They're just dates. You gotta give it to them, the propaganda is pretty darn good. Like that one 'Palestinian' nurse the other day with a very strange Arabic accent that * shocker * turned out to be an Israeli actress.
ok cool so they've got video showing there's been people down in the basement, maybe Hamas - lets even say "likely Hamas."
but uhhh....clearly it has been abandoned. no one is down there now, certainly no Hamas militants. so why exactly do they continue to attack the hospital if Hamas has fled from the premise and they're able to just waltz into the basement like this and take video? do they really think this video is going to convince people that they should be bombing the hospital when the supposed Hamas HQ is ABANDONED?
That's a different hospital.
ah youre right.
even better - they dont actually have any visual "evidence" that the Al Shifa hospital has these same kinds of rooms (which could very well have been make-shift safe spaces for patients to keep them from being bombed, btw) but are attacking it regardless.
Considering you've found the need to respond to my threads as if you are threatened by me I offer you some peace my confused counterpart. May you find peace in your restless soul.
even better - they dont actually have any visual "evidence" that the Al Shifa hospital has these same kinds of rooms (which could very well have been make-shift safe spaces for patients to keep them from being bombed, btw) but are attacking it regardless.
no evidence, just thoughts n prayers.
There's plenty of evidence, you're just choosing to ignore it.
I’m asking you. Probably not great to hide in a hospital, but a lot lot worse to be the ones bombing that hospital.
Again, I would argue that both are equally terrible
What are the thought processes here?
One side is accused of hiding somewhere to use international ethical standards in the hopes of shielding themselves from direct attack. Yes, it's reprehensible to use innocent people as a shield. I think everyone can agree with that. But the main goal here would be deterrence. It's not literally "kill the innocent and not me". Although that's a logical outcome and almost certainly a propaganda angle Hamas depends on. Still that requires actions from the other side.
The other side is claiming their enemy is using human shields and hiding themselves/supplies in hospitals. Their tactics include shelling the buildings, bombing the shit out of the surroundings, cutting off essential supplies that will save lives, shooting people, blowing up ambulances, etc. These are chosen actions out of several tactics they could take. Remember we are talking about a rich country with some of the best military resources on the planet. Backed by the world's last Superpower.
I'm not so sure they are equally terrible when several alternatives are available.
even better - they dont actually have any visual "evidence" that the Al Shifa hospital has these same kinds of rooms (which could very well have been make-shift safe spaces for patients to keep them from being bombed, btw) but are attacking it regardless.
no evidence, just thoughts n prayers.
There's plenty of evidence, you're just choosing to ignore it.
can you please provide it? where theres actual PROOF, not just "this IDF soldier said so"
Considering you've found the need to respond to my threads as if you are threatened by me I offer you some peace my confused counterpart. May you find peace in your restless soul.
