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Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.
Edit: I see you addressed parts of this in your next paragraph...so sorry if it's redundant.
Yea but Gyp was on a war path heading to Nucky. Chalky knows he has no beef with Gyp (at the moment anyway). Also, Nucky only had one person he could really trust. I imagine without all them extra guys and guns the situation would maybe be a little different. I'm not saying Chalky would be as scared as Nucky was....but there's a big difference between their situations.
I do agree, though, that Chalky has strength and conviction while Nucky's strength comes from the power he was able to take by using his wits. He's not physically strong (though he does have some fight in him) and doesn't seem to have a great handle on his personal relationships but I'm hoping this season changes that. The look on Nucky's face as he realized that he didn't know Chalky's phone number or how he knew NOTHING about the man who served him for so long really was awesome. That realization that he's alone because of the way he acts.
Obviously the situations are different, but it was obvious Gyp didn't believe or trust Chaulky, still sees him as one of Nuck's lackies and I got the very distinct impression his "I'll leave you alone" offer was complete and utter BS in order to get to Nucky.
Chaulky likely knows guns points at/looking for Nucky are going to eventually be his problem. He thrives in the underworld and you don't do that by a) trusting people at face value, and b) selling people out to the highest bidder. Chaulky held strong up against extreme pressure, and something I doubt people would point to (but I will, naturally) is that none of his guys sold Nucky out. That means, to me at least, that Chaulky's word is unquestioned law.
When in that element, he's unshakable (which Dave alluded to already). Nucky is clearly shakable if you give him enough of a jolt be it by violence, screwing with his money/business, etc.
Your last point is exactly what I was thinking of (or one of the instances, at least) that gave me this overwhelming feeling that Nucky is a scared little kid. It's not the same as a bully get socked in the mouth and cowering, Nuck was never a bully to me, just a powerful man who didn't take sh*t. So when he had all his power structure taken from him he realized just how helpless he is without it.
FWIW, I think Nuck is only alive because of his survival instinct and the fact he's not a stone-cold badass. If he was, he makes his Custard last stand and gets blown away. In other words, if Chaulky was in Nuck's shoes and forced to run I am pretty sure he stands, fights, and dies.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 15:57:24 GMT -5
Chalky's guys didn't sell out Nucky but they were definitely thinking about it when hanging around that fire. Probably not seriously....more like "If I won the lotto I'd do this..." type of thing. But I could definitely see somebody going to Gyp to try and claim the money because as Chalky points out, he doesn't trust anyone.
Still....I doubt it really leads to that. I think Nucky just takes the fight to Gyp as opposed to Gyp being tipped off
Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 28, 2012 16:02:19 GMT -5
I know what you mean, Flanz. Without re-stating your points too much in my own way, I'll just say that this (like Game of Thrones) has always been a show about the politics of power. There have been many, many, many characters in the show (Jimmy Darmody and Richard Harrow come to mind in addition to Chalky and even Gyp) that have the strong will and strength in general it takes to be great soldiers, but don't have the cunning and trickery it takes to be leaders (political or otherwise). I think as Lucky's and Capone's characters progress, we'll see how they develop the smarts and foresight they'll need to rise to and stay at the top. Lucky has Lansky to balance out his temper with rationality, but I think Capone is the one we'll really see develop over the course of the series, similar to the way Carver developed in The Wire.
As far as who dies, obviously Gyp is going down and there's a 99% chance that either Gillian or Richard (or both) will die. I also see Margaret's fate being around 50/50 (maybe more like 60/40) headed into the finale. I'd say Chalky is 50/50 too, but that's only because of something that's in the preview (so I won't spoil that). I would not be surprised at this point to see Eli or his son bite the bullet, too, but not both.
Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 28, 2012 16:06:09 GMT -5
Also, a few fine points for us to clarify: I agree with ITM, it seemed like Chalky's guys were definitely considering selling Nucky out, I thought that what was why Nucky had Chalky take him away to where Eli's son works, because he (and Chalky) were concerned that one of Chalky's men would sell him out.
Second, flanzo: are you sure Gyp didn't believe Chalky? I got the sense he was trying to start things off at least sort of on the right foot with Chalky (until he screws him over later, once he's sure Nucky is dead). If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky? I'll admit I was a little confused by that part of the scene, though; I was really surprised Gyp just took Nucky's word for it and walked away. Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 16:07:24 GMT -5
I'm guessing Chalky lives only because the storyline of him renovating and running a new club where Babette's used to be sounds like a lot of fun AND a good way to keep him relevant in the show.
If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky?
I just thought that it was the same thing you came up with:
Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
What's the point in getting in a huge firefight with people right in front of you when you're trying to take over the entire city/town? He wants Nucky dead...totally. But if he gets killed in the process the whole thing is for nothing.
That whole scene was showing both guys measuring the other one. Seeing how tough and how nice they need to be to each other. Gyp is likely trying to find out for certain if Nucky is definitely there but also doesn't need to create problems if there's no reason for them.
I believe he thinks Nucky is there somewhere though, otherwise he wouldn't have made the loud proclamation to everyone about the price on Nucky's head.
I'm guessing Chalky lives only because the storyline of him renovating and running a new club where Babette's used to be sounds like a lot of fun AND a good way to keep him relevant in the show.
I agree, but I have a theory about this based largely on something shown in the episode 12 preview (ep. 12 preview spoilers):
In the preview for episode 12, Rothstein offers Nucky "a way out" of his war in exchange for something else that is totally unclear right now. I have no idea what that could be, so I'm wondering if Rothstein wants the location where Babbette's used to be so he can build a casino. This would obviously leave Nucky with a choice regarding Chalky.
It's a stretch, though, since AR clearly hates New Jersey. But I have no idea what else Rothstein could possibly want from Nucky.
Rothstein is definitely on the phone and definitely offers somebody "a way out" but there's no way to tell who he is talking to and if it has to do with the war in NJ.
I totally thought that the preview wants us to believe that but in reality Rothstein is on the phone with Lucky Luciano and is going to help bail him out of jail. Lucky gets locked up, asks for help from Rothstein who makes Lucky promise/swear to end business with Joe Masseria.
The stuff involving Lucky/Meyer in the preview is all about the heroin deal stuff and finding out who they were working with.
If I missed something in the preview that points to Rothstein definitely talking to Nucky let me know....it's possible.
Lucky and Lansky are definitely in the same room with Masseria in a few of the shots in the preview. I wonder how that situation will shake out next week. Obviously, Lucky and Lansky will outlive Masseria and Gyp.
EDIT: Actually, maybe that's how Gyp and Masseria die. Maybe AR offers to bail Lucky out of prison if he offs Gyp and Masseria. I see that as pretty unlikely, though. A) that'd be anticlimactic, and B)I don't totally see why AR would be itching to have Masseria and Gyp killed (he more or less just wants to stay out of it and let it shake out how it will, it seems). Although, Gyp did try to have him murdered...
I definitely caught a shot of one of the cops roughing Lucky and saying "Who's your partner?" and then there's a scene that shows Lucky in a nice room and someone asks "Who backed the money" (or something about "who gave the money") so I think that we'll see Lucky have to fess up to AR that he and Meyer made the deal with Masseria.
Yeah, I saw that scene ITM, but there was definitely another scene where Lucky and Lansky were in the same room with Masseria and possibly Gyp. Also, see my edit inside the spoiler tag above. Another possible (albeit unlikely) death scenario for Gyp.
Also, a few fine points for us to clarify: I agree with ITM, it seemed like Chalky's guys were definitely considering selling Nucky out, I thought that what was why Nucky had Chalky take him away to where Eli's son works, because he (and Chalky) were concerned that one of Chalky's men would sell him out.
Second, flanzo: are you sure Gyp didn't believe Chalky? I got the sense he was trying to start things off at least sort of on the right foot with Chalky (until he screws him over later, once he's sure Nucky is dead). If he didn't believe what Chalky said, wouldn't he go into that safe house anyway to search for Nucky? I'll admit I was a little confused by that part of the scene, though; I was really surprised Gyp just took Nucky's word for it and walked away. Maybe he didn't want a shootout right then and there with Chalky's boys?
I'm about 95% certain that Gyp didn't believe Chaulky, but open-air bloodbaths are bad for business. Gyp is insane, but also somewhat cunning when it comes to killing people, like a brutal savant or something.
He knew the odds were against him being on Chaulky's turf with about a dozen shotguns pointed at his crew. That's a lose-lose. You either win the skirmish and start a war with that crew or you get killed. Gyp has waited long enough for Nuck, I saw that as him basically saying he'd keep] waiting. He also was probably hoping the $25K thing would cause someone to immediately dime Nucky out.
Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 28, 2012 17:20:06 GMT -5
OK that makes sense, but Chalky doesn't have any more men than the ones that are at that safehouse; wouldn't Gyp just return with his (Masseria's) massive army and light the place up if he really thinks Chalky is lying and that Nucky is there? And wouldn't he have someone staking out the place that would probably see Nucky when Chalky sneaks him out to the wagon?
OK that makes sense, but Chalky doesn't have any more men than the ones that are at that safehouse; wouldn't Gyp just return with his (Masseria's) massive army and light the place up if he really thinks Chalky is lying and that Nucky is there? And wouldn't he have someone staking out the place that would probably see Nucky when Chalky sneaks him out to the wagon?
Chaulky's "men" stretch beyond just the guys holding shotguns. Every black person in the greater AC area has ties to Chaulky. He fights for them, so they all fight for him. I think you're underestimating how much power Chaulky would have in an all-out war.
The stakeout was the only wrench I don't have an answer for. Maybe that will soon be answered? There's an episode left so if Gyp did have someone follow Nuck, it'd still be too soon for his men to have gotten there by the time Eli/Chaulky's people got there, right? I dunno, I've been trying to think my way around that one, but so far have been unsuccessful.
As far as the "go get Masseria's army" comment...he doesn't have Masseria's army, remember? I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if Masseria blames Nucky's coming after him on Gyp because he told him this was a stupid war and it was "his" (meaning Gyp's) war. I realize Nuck took a shot at the king, but I think Masseria's loyalty to Gyp only exists as long as Gyp isn't causing waves for him.
Therefore, shocker, Masseria kills Gyp, then comes after Nuck who now has the manpower he needs, Nuck's army kills Masseria, Luciano steps in. Bingo, bango, bongo....next season! (Just kidding, I'm leaving work so I can't completely finish my thought here).
Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 28, 2012 17:35:56 GMT -5
It's unclear at this point whether or not Gyp has Masseria's army or how much of it he has. Gyp seemed to gain Masseria's army after their conversation at the diner, but then their exchange on the beach an episode or two later made it seem like Masseria might not be giving him access to his entire army. What is clear is that Masseria is very, very hesitant about this war and not very loyal to Gyp (like you said, his loyalty to Gyp is contingent on Gyp not causing too many problems for him, which he very clearly has). So, I wouldn't be surprised either if Masseria ends up turning on Gyp himself.
Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 17:37:12 GMT -5
Yeah, Chalky has a kind of power similar to Tyler Durden in Fight Club. Like Flanzo said, every black person in the city follows Chalky. They only follow Nucky because Chalky does. They work all the menial service jobs in the city. Need someone dead? Poison a meal. One of Chalky's people will serve it.
Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 28, 2012 18:10:38 GMT -5
Also, I think it's funny/noteworthy that basically none of the death scenarios we've come up with for Gyp feature Nucky shooting Gyp himself. If it comes down to a showdown, I think Gyp would pretty easily get the best of Nuck (and obviously that won't happen). Nucky would have to do something sneaky/underhanded to win in a mano-a-mano with Gyp.
Also, I think it's funny/noteworthy that basically none of the death scenarios we've come up with for Gyp feature Nucky shooting Gyp himself. If it comes down to a showdown, I think Gyp would pretty easily get the best of Nuck (and obviously that won't happen). Nucky would have to do something sneaky/underhanded to win in a mano-a-mano with Gyp.
Eh, a gun is all it takes. Nuck has a quicker hand than Gyp, and he wins.
Yeah, I mean I knew Tonino would be involved but that was as close as I got.
"Tommy, close your eyes" might've been the best and most well-delivered line in the entirety of the series. I flipped the f*ck out when he said that. Not only was it just an epically badass thing to say, it's indicative of Richard's whole motivation in his relationship with Tommy, wanting to protect him and shield him from the violent horrors that he himself is haunted by. And then Tommy going up and hugging him...Richard's scenes were definitely the highlight of this excellent (if a little bit unsurprising) finale.
I loved how it turned out Nucky had a plan in place for a while, but just needed the time & manpower to execute it.
Very interested to see how things go next season, they set us up for quite a bit. Lot of moving parts in different levels of the show (from street-level muscle in Van Alden to the head of the goddamn treasury of the United States) that are all great.
Patiently waiting for Dave's long rambling rant on this episode, it should be a doozy.
Post by wannaberoo'ing on Dec 3, 2012 8:02:32 GMT -5
No major surprises! I guess that was the surprise. Interesting finale to say the least.
I loved it. Richard is the man.
Nucky and Margaret's relationship pains me. I wish they could find a way back to one another. I had a feeling Nucky would do what he did (trying to be vague for those who didn't see it all yet, I know there is a spoiler thingie) when it came to her- although he can't actually be this person, he wants to be a good husband/father deep inside.
Good call, karosko. You nailed it again- except she will be ok.
I agree with everything karosko and itm said about the scene with Richard and Tommy. It was a really well done scene, and it exhibited a ton about what Richard has going on in his protection of Tommy. Until this point, I put it more on him trying to protect Jimmy and Angela's child since he was able to save neither of them, but that scene put it much more on him trying to protect Tommy from the world around him (much like Gillian said she tried to do with him). I don't know about any of you but I think I spent the entirety of the scene with him going through the house actually hovering 1/2" above my seat because I was that tense. For a show that doesn't do a ton of action sequences, they surely know how to do them when they do. The scene with him dropping Tommy off at his lady friend's house was kind of heartbreaking. His lady is obviously worried about him. The father takes Tommy in without question even going so far as to giving Tommy his dead son's room. He tells Richard to clean himself up and come back in the daylight. Richard has that family life that he has been wanting for the entirety in the show right there in front of him, but he seemingly realizes that he just can't do it. For me, it was definitely the most emotional scene of the finale, and I am very curious as to see where Richard will go next season as they left him up in the air. Lastly, I was just thinking about how Richard's mask and voice plays into your reaction to him as a character. The mask and voice greatly limit the range of emotion that Huston can use to show emotions, but Richard is the character on the show that is arguably the easiest one to connect with on an emotional level. From what was said on here and other articles I read, everyone was worried about Richard this week and not just because they wanted Tommy to be safe. Is it just because his narrative is the most intriguing or is it Jack Huston rocking sh*t on the acting front or is it the mask allowing people to project their emotions on the character more easily?
Karosko brought up the question of the episode about Gillian. Is she dead or not? It definitely seems like they wanted you to believe she was on her way, but years of watching TV and movies has taught me to never assume a character is dead until you see a body. Hell, part of me was waiting for Jimmy to show up at some point this season even though he took two in the face. I like the vulnerability that they showed in her this episode. She had to know that her chances against Gyp were pretty damn slim, and her desperation was emphasized when she said that the house was all that she had. I wonder how her delusion with Nucky at the end of the episode is going to play into his character next season. Gillian has been pretty far gone in Nucky’s eyes for a while, but the delusion took him back to when she was a 14 year old girl that Nucky delivered up to a much much older man. I don’t think that Nucky is a hard enough guy to not let that bother him. If she is dead, it adds another ghost to haunt Nucky, and one has to wonder what will happen with the house since it is in Tommy’s name and played too large of the plot in the show to just ignore.
I will have to give credit where credit is due. Karosko did get the right person involved with Gyp’s death even though he got the wrong motivation. I do appreciate that they showed Gyp totally losing his mind. Is there any significance to the way that Tonino killed him? It looked like he stabbed him in both lungs. That’s an awful specific way to kill someone for it just to be random. The only other thing I want to say about that is that Nucky had someone do it. All the tough talk about how he is a gangster and such, and I am pretty sure they didn’t show him kill a single person during the entire episode.
Like Flanzo, I do love that Nucky had a plan the entire time. The plan did a really good job of allowing a resolution to the plot for this season at the same time as it moved things forward for the next season. First, it sends a big f*ck you to Arnold Rothstein from Nucky. Giving him the distillery allowed Nucky to set up Masseria but calling it in to the Feds allowed him to really screw over Rothstein in the process. I do have to wonder if Rothstein will face any serious heat over this or if he will be able to weasel his way out of it like usual. Also, will he seek revenge on Nucky when he potentially does not have the advantage? Second, I have to think that Mellon made the call that he was supposed to, but he cannot be pleased to watch a potential revenue stream dry up like that. That’s a big distillery that could have made them a ton of money. Even if Rothstein gets arrested, they can’t exactly move back in there and start everything up the next day like nothing ever happened. I also thoroughly enjoyed the f*ck you to Masseria. His guys were leaving in an orderly fashion and were content to go on their way since the boss had told them to. They got annihilated on the road to send Masseria a message about how powerful Nucky is. Nucky reiterated this at the end of the episode with the ultimatum that he sent through Tonino. I have to think that Masseria won’t be able to just go back to business as usual despite the warning. Even if he does, this cuts off NYC as a place for Nucky to move booze. Rothstein and Masseria will definitely not respond kindly to Nucky doing anything in the city.
This leads to my other favorite scene in the episode, and my prediction for season 4. Lucky and Meyer are coming, yo. I loved the scene where they found out that they got screwed over by Rothstein and Masseria. Lucky gave the visceral reaction and reemphasized how he is personally vicious in a way that Masseria is no longer and Rothstein never was. Meyer is the one that owned that scene though. The barely contained rage when Lucky was first talking outside the room and the outburst right before they were let in were spot on. Meyer has tried very hard to not be violent it seems and emulate his mentor, Rothstein, but I felt there was a change to a certain extent with him right then. He still was able to be the calming voice to keep Lucky from getting them murdered on the spot, but one little detail spoke volumes in my opinion. I can’t remember Rothstein’s exact words, but it was the shot where Meyer was in the foreground and Rothstein was in soft focus in the background being patronizing. There was a little twitch in Meyer’s face that made me feel like he almost snapped. I think Lucky and Meyer are going to make a play for NYC next season, and it is going to be f*cking awesome.
How do you think Capone’s help to Nucky is going to play out in the long run? He made a definite enemy in Masseria. I can’t help but think it won’t come back on him to make his upcoming war with O’Bannion a little more difficult. It does nicely set up how they could merge the NYC and Chicago storylines with Capone, Lansky and Luciano all having a common enemy now.
I also have to give props to karosko for calling Margaret having an abortion. I think that Margaret is the less obvious person left up in the air. With the dialogue that came after, it is easy to forget that Margaret went to the bathroom in the first place because she was bleeding after the abortion. It may not turn into anything, but it may also be the start of a medical emergency for her. I think I can see what they are trying to do with Margaret showing her leaving behind the life of privilege and getting away from Nucky due to her concerns about him being a terrible person and how this is made more difficult due to the gender inequalities of the time, but she still just comes off more sulky to me. This erodes what could have been an easy shot at having a strong female character in a male dominated era.
I liked the flash of anger from Eli when Nucky mentioned him never being sheriff again. It makes me wonder if things aren’t as healed between him and Nucky as the last few episodes led us to believe. This also stands out because of what Nucky said at the end about not letting anyone close that they don’t already know and trust. Eli seems to once again be Nucky’s right hand and the person who can do the most damage if he chooses to betray him.
Last thoughts: - Is Eddie ok? - Why the hell didn’t they let Chalky and Al fight a little? - In the same scene during the staredown, did anyone else think of “I don’t know about cards but I think these 45 beat a full house” - “And here I got both my hands full.” was the episode’s second best line. - Will Nucky make good on his promise about Chalky’s club? - Does anyone else think next season will be more about things outside Atlantic City?
I absolutely loved the scene with Lucky/Lanksy and Rothstein/Masseria. And I thought the same thing watching Lansky, that he puts up the calm (if you haven't watched the show, this isn't meant to be insulting) "Jewish demeanor," but he's not from the same mold as Rothstein. He is in terms of how he plans deliberately and doesn't leave things to chance, but he seems like he has a side we haven't seen yet, mainly because he hasn't had a reason to. He's always been aligned with the winning side and hasn't had anyone really f*ck with him to the point of needing to muscle up. Now, they're at that point, I would bet anything that we get a "hooooooooooo-ly sh*t did Lansky just lose it" scene next season.
Rothstein was very patronizing towards the two of them in that scene. Like a master who had one last lesson for his former proteges. That sh*t-eating grin he wore the entire time made me want to smack my TV.
Last thoughts: - Is Eddie ok? - Why the hell didn’t they let Chalky and Al fight a little? - In the same scene during the staredown, did anyone else think of “I don’t know about cards but I think these 45 beat a full house” - “And here I got both my hands full.” was the episode’s second best line. - Will Nucky make good on his promise about Chalky’s club? - Does anyone else think next season will be more about things outside Atlantic City?
- Yes, Nucky will throw something at him in the season opener next season because Nucky forgets something and Eddie doesn't know what he forgot (a.k.a. business as usual). - I don't know, but I was pissed. - The Chaulky Little nickname still stands. - Dunn Purnsley has turned into a fantastic supporting character (I would not have guessed in a million years he'd go from that jail cell beat down to where he is now). - Yeah, I think Nuck is a man of his word and lets Chaulky open up his club. - There's almost no choice. So much happening in Chicago & NY, plus the distillery. Next season takes a much wider view of the storylines.
Dave, I remember when we were talking about potential death scenarios for Gyp, you said you'd be disappointed or thought it'd be anticlimactic if Tonino killed Gyp directly. At the time I agreed, but I actually thought his death scene was pretty great, mostly because of the way it was shot--unnerving bird's eye angles and long shots. You KNEW he was about to die (I thought Nucky was gonna creep from the back of Tonino's car and shoot him himself), but the way they did it I thought was pretty satisfactory, especially from a visual/aesthetic standpoint. What'd you guys think of Gyp's death scene?
Also, I didn't think there was any significance to how he killed him, Dave, other than that he stabbed Gyp in the back, which I thought was meant to be a little symbolic. I also wonder why Gyp's other two guys that were left didn't stop Tonino. Guess they just didn't give a f*ck about Gyp, either?
And yeah, Nucky's plan finally clicked into place and he won the short game, but he's set up a lot of trouble for himself in the long game--in one fell swoop he managed to piss three extremely powerful men (Masseria, Rothstein, and Mellon) the f*ck off. That's going to cause some troubles for him next season, obviously.
