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They can't make this 18+ and survive. They know this and have known it for years, and they've given the same answer of "we fell in love with music at festivals when we were 16 and want other to as well" for the last 5 years during this AMA. Also, they did add another nice 21+ area this year, so they are aware and trying.
The problem is with the lineup and hopefully they answer my question. It was inexcusable to have Tyler play unopposed rather than have a Death Cab or Gaslight Anthem type set opposing. Next year they to go back to balancing this more 50/50 with mature acts and kiddie acts. Book more Noel Gallagher's, Robyns, Pixies, etc. The older crowd is still the one that buys the beer and VIP.
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
They can easily do a one-day event like you described, and they can use Corona Park this time (I think?). I'm sure it would sell well if they can book a nice lineup.
They can't make this 18+ and survive. They know this and have known it for years, and they've given the same answer of "we fell in love with music at festivals when we were 16 and want other to as well" for the last 5 years during this AMA. Also, they did add another nice 21+ area this year, so they are aware and trying.
The problem is with the lineup and hopefully they answer my question. It was inexcusable to have Tyler play unopposed rather than have a Death Cab or Gaslight Anthem type set opposing. Next year they to go back to balancing this more 50/50 with mature acts and kiddie acts. Book more Noel Gallagher's, Robyns, Pixies, etc. The older crowd is still the one that buys the beer and VIP.
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
Wasn't that panorama?
I'd say no. First, GovBall was still throwing the older crowd some bones (I mean, our headliners in 2017 were Chance, Phoenix, and Tool, FFS), so Pano had to contend with that competition. Second, if I recall correctly, Pano wasn't 18-plus. Third, they were trying to do something on the same scale as GovBall - they didn't dial down the size until two years of a GovBall-sized festival had already pretty heavily undersold, and by that time, it was too late.
I'm saying *start* small, see how it does, and build from there. I can only speak for myself, but I'd much rather attend a 1- or 2-day event that I knew would have a better (or, I should say, more suited for my old ass) vibe than a 3-day event with the kind of atmosphere that GovBall's has become.
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
Wasn't that panorama?
really cant stress enough how bad the dates for panorama vs gov ball are
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
Wasn't that panorama?
Panorama failed for many reasons (terrible promotion, awful time of year, Randall's fatigue) and yes probably lineups that were too high-brow did factor in. But the failure of Pano is not a reason to book straight cheese for kids to survive.
I also don't think Founders has any interest in #breakupgovball. They want it to be the flagship, quintessential New York festival. Gov Ball can be a brand that is a lot more valuable than just a teenybopper fest in June.
Part of the issue is that Gov Ball can't seem to sign one of the true big dog headliners that would pack the place with an older crowd. They haven't gotten Pearl Jam, Radiohead, Springsteen, etc, and I'm sure they've tried.
Panorama failed for many reasons (terrible promotion, awful time of year, Randall's fatigue) and yes probably lineups that were too high-brow did factor in. But the failure of Pano is not a reason to book straight cheese for kids to survive.
I also don't think Founders has any interest in #breakupgovball. They want it to be the flagship, quintessential New York festival. Gov Ball can be a brand that is a lot more valuable than just a teenybopper fest in June.
Part of the issue is that Gov Ball can't seem to sign one of the true big dog headliners that would pack the place with an older crowd. They haven't gotten Pearl Jam, Radiohead, Springsteen, etc, and I'm sure they've tried.
The tricky thing there is to find an act that's not touring elsewhere, giving their fans an option that doesn't involve interacting with the usual GovBall crowd. It's anecdotal, and admittedly, Tool is not on the level of any of the artists you mentioned, but I read and heard plenty of NYC-based Tool fans talking about how they opted to travel to other locations on the band's tour specifically because they didn't want to deal with GovBall's atmosphere. It's why the band's first NYC date in over a decade was a ghost town of a festival day. The folks you mentioned have die-hard enough fans that I think they'd still probably sell out their day instantly...but after what happened with Tool, I'm not 150% sure of it. I mean, speaking personally, at this stage, if both Boston Calling and GovBall booked a rock headliner I liked, I would be pretty inclined to travel rather than deal with what goes on at Randall's, any more.
Founders can talk about wanting to cater to all demos, and I respect that, but it's a losing proposition and getting more losing the more this festival builds its reputation as a teenage wasteland (and not the cool, "Baba O'Riley" kind).
#breakupgovball
PS - Yes, I know it is not likely to happen at all. A guy can dream.
I’m generally against the idea of an age restriction. I wanna be able to take my kids to a festival later in life. Some kids are mature enough to not lose their shit. As a bunch of you have already explained, you can box a lot of the troublesome element out by booking acts that bring in people who aren’t chugging Fireballs they bought off a guy with a cooler on the bridge at 11am.
I’m generally against the idea of an age restriction. I wanna be able to take my kids to a festival later in life. Some kids are mature enough to not lose their shit. As a bunch of you have already explained, you can box a lot of the troublesome element out by booking acts that bring in people who aren’t chugging Fireballs they bought off a guy with a cooler on the bridge at 11am.
Yeah, but you'd be taking your kids, which is very different than parents dropping $300 to have GovBall get their teens out of the house for 3 days. My wife saw a woman on Twitter complaining about her 14 year-old daughter, who was at the festival, being traumatized by the evacuation. Knowing everything that goes on at music festivals or has the potential to go on, there is NO WAY I would let a 14 year-old child go to one unattended. That is nuts, to me.
I am sure that an age restriction could be modified with "unless accompanied by an adult," with minors who are brought in by parents/guardians being issued different wristbands that could be easily identified by, say, color.
I'm standing by my #breakupgovball solution. Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven.
They can easily do a one-day event like you described, and they can use Corona Park this time (I think?). I'm sure it would sell well if they can book a nice lineup.
I said this on reddit in response to Founders saying in their AMA that they are working on something with The Strokes:
Give me a one-day festival a la Just Like Heaven with the royalty of the '00s NYC indie rock boom - The Strokes, LCD Soundsystem, Interpol, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, TV on the Radio, The Rapture, a Walkmen reunion, the Mooney Suzuki...I'd say Vampire Weekend, but that's probably too much artillery/booking cost for one day, as if the list I have up there wasn't a budget-breaker, already. Call it the Meet Me in the Bathroom Festival and have the logo look like it was written out in lines of cocaine.
I joke at the end, there, but I would buy as many tickets as I legally could to that, instantly.
They can easily do a one-day event like you described, and they can use Corona Park this time (I think?). I'm sure it would sell well if they can book a nice lineup.
I said this on reddit in response to Founders saying in their AMA that they are working on something with The Strokes:
Give me a one-day festival a la Just Like Heaven with the royalty of the '00s NYC indie rock boom - The Strokes, LCD Soundsystem, Interpol, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, TV on the Radio, The Rapture, a Walkmen reunion, the Mooney Suzuki...I'd say Vampire Weekend, but that's probably too much artillery/booking cost for one day, as if the list I have up there wasn't a budget-breaker, already. Call it the Meet Me in the Bathroom Festival and have the logo look like it was written out in lines of cocaine.
I joke at the end, there, but I would buy as many tickets as I legally could to that, instantly.
Or just build Kanye’s dome and do a 2 day festival in September with Kanye and The Strokes headlining at Citi Field (or even Randall’s, it’d sell out at either way). They’ve worked with Kanye through think and thin in the past so just meet him halfway here.
(I know you hate Kanye btw and will hate this idea but it’s the best path for a 2nd NYC fest
Bought my tickets off some guy who got them for free from the production company so not getting any money back - also bought my shuttle pass from the shuttle pass stand so won't get any money back from that. Flew from western Canada for this show pretty disappointed. Might just fly out to ohana for one day since its a 240CAD round trip to go see them. Sigh.
Founders is still answering questions in the AMA as of an hour ago. Obviously they fucked up big Sunday, and in ways I wasn't even aware of until the AMA, but I gotta commend the team there for facing the music head-on like they have
Specifically for this festival and how it has been marketed sure, but I dont buy that this festival couldnt be financially successful with a different target market based on Austin City Limits, Outside Lands, and even Boston Calling, all city festivals that are able to pull enough support from the older demographics to make money
I will note that the Saturday VIP sold out which is exclusively 21+ so it's not like the "older" crowd is entirely missing. I feel like we all have this same conversation every year after this festival. We note that the hip-hop/pop/annoying EDM sets were the best attended and usually reflected a crowd of youngsters yet still want the festival to book acts that appeal more to an older demographic. Can't see GB taking that route anytime soon but let's hope they don't go all out in that direction and end up like Made In America.
Festivals get the audience that their lineup attracts. If the hip hop/pop/EDM acts were the best attended, it's because fans of Americana, classic rock, indie rock, folk, etc. may not have found a lot to like in the lineup's top few lines besides Florence, The Strokes, and Kasey Musgraves and not bought passes because of that.
It's been remarked by others in some of the Boston Calling threads here that that fest has a top down booking strategy where they book a headliner and then fill up that day with acts which will appeal to the headliner's fans. Strokes Sunday at Gov Ball this year seemed so odd, in that you don't find another rock and roll act that day on the poster until you get to Soccer Mommy. Maybe Gov Ball needs to think about their lineups similarly and book from the top down.
(None of which is a problem when you've got 6+ music stages, of course, and can be everything to everyone.)
I will note that the Saturday VIP sold out which is exclusively 21+ so it's not like the "older" crowd is entirely missing. I feel like we all have this same conversation every year after this festival. We note that the hip-hop/pop/annoying EDM sets were the best attended and usually reflected a crowd of youngsters yet still want the festival to book acts that appeal more to an older demographic. Can't see GB taking that route anytime soon but let's hope they don't go all out in that direction and end up like Made In America.
Festivals get the audience that their lineup attracts. If the hip hop/pop/EDM acts were the best attended, it's because fans of Americana, classic rock, indie rock, folk, etc. may not have found a lot to like in the lineup's top few lines besides Florence, The Strokes, and Kasey Musgraves and not bought passes because of that.
It's been remarked by others in some of the Boston Calling threads here that that fest has a top down booking strategy where they book a headliner and then fill up that day with acts which will appeal to the headliner's fans. Strokes Sunday at Gov Ball this year seemed so odd, in that you don't find another rock and roll act that day on the poster until you get to Soccer Mommy. Maybe Gov Ball needs to think about their lineups similarly and book from the top down.
(None of which is a problem when you've got 6+ music stages, of course, and can be everything to everyone.)
I'm pretty sure they typically do. The going theory this year is that either Kanye West or Kids See Ghosts were going to be one of the headliners, and then that fell through, leaving them scrambling, a bit. My thought is that we originally had a headliner lineup of Strokes - Florence - Kanye/KSG, which would explain why Friday was so rock-heavy and Sunday was so hip-hop heavy in the undercard. Then, you have Kanye/KSG fall through. The Strokes get moved to Sunday because they're now the flashiest name in the lineup, but that puts them at the top of a day stacked with hip-hop, while Tyler's headlining set takes place on a day with a bunch of rock bands.
I don't know. It's a bit galaxy brain, but it makes some logical sense.
I have a feeling they're gonna implement something to deal with the teenager issue. Be it supervision or going 17/18+ or something, more than enough people are making their feelings known about this in the AMA and they've gotta know there are countless others without a Reddit account who feel the same
I have a feeling they're gonna implement something to deal with the teenager issue. Be it supervision or going 17/18+ or something, more than enough people are making their feelings known about this in the AMA and they've gotta know there are countless others without a Reddit account who feel the same
Maybe they'll hand out paddles for the older folks
I have a feeling they're gonna implement something to deal with the teenager issue. Be it supervision or going 17/18+ or something, more than enough people are making their feelings known about this in the AMA and they've gotta know there are countless others without a Reddit account who feel the same
I don't think Gov Ball could withstand losing the 15-17 crowd
I have a feeling they're gonna implement something to deal with the teenager issue. Be it supervision or going 17/18+ or something, more than enough people are making their feelings known about this in the AMA and they've gotta know there are countless others without a Reddit account who feel the same
This is the most obvious answer if their - and a lot of the kids'- assertion that it's all about the music, maaaaan, is accurate. If you're a kid that's really there just because you desperately want to see a band you love, it shouldn't matter that you're being accompanied by someone over 18 and wearing, say, a fire-engine red underage wristband.
Of course, the truth is that it's not just about that, and never has been for the teenage audience that's grown so exponentially over the past few years.
Sigh. I'd like to think they would take some of the feedback this time around to heart. People have complained about the youth movement before, but never this much and with this much intensity - Tom Russell admitted to being overwhelmed by it during the AMA, and I'm sure the footage that went viral of kids trashing the art installation made something of an impact. But everyone's right in that, whether they did it deliberately or not, they've made teens the foundation of their ticket-buying audience. Overhauling the festival in a way that's detrimental to that would lead to at the very least a couple of lean years as audience expectations shifted, if not the outright financial failure of the festival.
...which, again, is why they should (picks up stick, beats dead horse) #breakupgovball.
Wouldn't Gov Ball have more of a leash for a down year or two being backed by Live Nation? I think LN/Founders can afford to lose teens in the short-term if it means gaining more of the 18/21+ crowd in the long-term. Or is that not how it works - genuine question
Would a more mature lineup even detour the teenagers? I don’t know all that much about the NYC fest scene, but it seems like they’ve firmly cemented themselves here.
Would a more mature lineup even detour the teenagers? I don’t know all that much about the NYC fest scene, but it seems like they’ve firmly cemented themselves here.
Yeah it would. The kids in NYC don't like guitar or nostalgia. I think a Meadows lineup in the park in June would be like a daycare
Wouldn't Gov Ball have more of a leash for a down year or two being backed by Live Nation? I think LN/Founders can afford to lose teens in the short-term if it means gaining more of the 18/21+ crowd in the long-term. Or is that not how it works - genuine question
I worked for a festival that the average attendee age was 31 and it is sustainable. However I don’t think GovBall would survive like that. Pano skewed older from what I gather and they are no longer around.
Wouldn't Gov Ball have more of a leash for a down year or two being backed by Live Nation? I think LN/Founders can afford to lose teens in the short-term if it means gaining more of the 18/21+ crowd in the long-term. Or is that not how it works - genuine question
I worked for a festival that the average attendee age was 31 and it is sustainable. However I don’t think GovBall would survive like that. Pano skewed older from what I gather and they are no longer around.
Older scaled festivals can survive in places that have a ton of parks/lands/area to throw every different type of festival (look at the LA area). New York basically has 3 places that will allow a festival, two are islands and the other is a parking lot.
I really feel the same reason that The Meadows didn't continue successfully as a 2 day fest is the same reason a Strokes-centered one day fest won't happen: 1 day of revenue from a fest for Founders is simply not worth all the set up, logistics, safety prep, and coordination with the city it takes to put it on.
Let the kiddies have this one, and launch a second, smaller (one- or two-day, to start), 18- or 21-plus event that caters to the more mature crowd. I'd be very curious to see how something like that would do; if we could replicate the success of something like Just Like Heaven. 
