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Post by viciouscircle on Mar 27, 2009 10:34:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I never got what happened to them. Did I miss it or did they just sort of fade away?
The lack of normal communication skills by the Losties drives me nuts, too. There must be a thousand instances where if person A just said what they were actually thinking to person B, everything would go relatively smoothly. It reminds me of every cop show I've ever seen, where the cops are approaching a perp on the street, and instead of waiting till they are in grabbing distance of the dude, the announce their presence to the perp while they are still 100 yards away, and so the perp runs. Der.
Post by ChiefPemperToadWigginsky on Mar 29, 2009 13:41:31 GMT -5
I can't wait to see what happens to Desmond. Does anyone remember that Ben told Jack to pick up Locke's Body because he was beaten up badly and at a pay phone AT A BOAT DOCK of some kind! Desmond and Pen-nay live on boat and might have had an encounter with him. Also what's up with Desmond's psychic abilities now that he is off the island? He turned the Failsafe key a long time ago and nothing has come of it except Charlie's death (he will be missed).
I just saw the guy that plays Walt on a Tyson chicken wings commercial. Weird.
That commerical played one night during Lost! It was hilarious.
My roomie made an interesting point last night, which is odd because he rarely pays attention to anything. Ben has said that when you move the island, you're not allowed to come back. And yet, there he is, back on the island. Same for Locke. I've always been under the impression that was why Widmore couldn't go back to the island, because once you move it, you'll never be able to find it again. Thoughts?
I just saw the guy that plays Walt on a Tyson chicken wings commercial. Weird.
That commerical played one night during Lost! It was hilarious.
My roomie made an interesting point last night, which is odd because he rarely pays attention to anything. Ben has said that when you move the island, you're not allowed to come back. And yet, there he is, back on the island. Same for Locke. I've always been under the impression that was why Widmore couldn't go back to the island, because once you move it, you'll never be able to find it again. Thoughts?
Unless you can only go back if you recreate the conditions that brought you there and if The Island wants you back. Obviously The Island wants Locke back and I think maybe Ben is just riding on his coattails to get back himself. I really have no idea though.
But danbird, you're supposed to know everything!!!
I think I'll be missing tomorrow night's episode, but I'm not terribly upset. It's looking like it will be the Kate-equivalent of the Sayid episode we had last week... learning how she got back to the island. BUT, the guest stars include Claire's mom and Cassidy...
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 1, 2009 22:06:53 GMT -5
Best part - Kate asking Sawyer why he was helping her, only to have Sawyer tell her he was doing it for Juliette. Ouch! And also HAHAHAHA.
Close second - the look on Ben's face when he wakes up and sees Locke. But what happened to all the scratches and cuts on his face? It hasn't been long enough for them to heal that much, and the previews for next week show him having them looking kind of fresh again. Get with the program, makeup and/or continuity people.
Worst part - finding out that the Losties probably cannot die in the past, which means noone is going to kill Jack, and that is something I want to see more than ever after this episode.
No way. I'm really liking the new Jack. He's starting to believe.
Thought it was a great episode. Kate came back to find Claire? Sweet. Look forward to some of that goodness.....probably next season The conversations between Hurley and dude about time travel were classic. Great stuff. Next episode. YES. YES. YES. Can't wait to see The Island judge Ben.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 1, 2009 22:34:36 GMT -5
The new Jack might be starting to believe, but he exercises that belief in the same self centered way the old Jack handled things. Refusing to operate on a little kid? Chucking the hippocratic oath just because he feels like it? Plus he said he came back because he wanted to find his purpose, but shortly before getting on the plane to do so he was Coultering out a dead John for believing the same thing. He seems to be rewriting his own motivations just to excuse himself from letting a little kid die.
I liked Kate in this episode, but I still liked her getting told where she stands with Sawyer. And that exchange between Hurley and the time guy was great. So when Richard said Ben wouldn't remember any of this, what did he mean by this? Just the part where Kate and Sawyer drop him off? The part where Sayid shot him (what kind of skilled assassin doesn't make sure his kill is actually dead, btw? Sayid is slacking! Maybe he's still reeling from how dumb he was to think that a woman he had called a hooker would then want to go to his room without other motivations. Sayid - women don't respond well to being called hookers unless they a)are hookers or b) are hoping to get you alone and knock you unconcious) We know Ben remembers that he lived with the Dharma initiative, so how far back is Richard wiping out his memory? And how is he doing that, anyway?
I liked this episode okay, but next week with Ben and Locke is going to be killer.
P.S. Great job on the board today. I've been laughing about it all day.
Post by awolfatthedoor on Apr 2, 2009 3:16:02 GMT -5
I assume that the part of the memory he is going to wipe out is from him busting out Sayid on because Ben did not remember Sayid shooting him. But isn't the place where Richard took Ben the same place as the smoke monster. I don't really have any ideas on that just what I thought I saw. I understand Jack not wanting to help Ben only because if you had the chance to let Charles Manson die, not murder him, but let him fade away would you do it? Sometimes people have to make tough moral decisions for the good of others. But in doing so Jack played right into turning Ben into the awful person that he eventually becomes. Ever since we saw the whole Locke-Ben murder scene I have been dying for an episode devoted to that. Thanks for the info on that coming up next. And the board does look cool!
I still like the idea that Ben remembered all of it and knew who many of the plane crash survivors were when they landed on the Island. I dont really get why they would need him to forget everything.
And yes I do believe it is the same place as where the smoke monster came from.
Here is what I am wondering. When did the scenes with the soldiers happen? Was it the 50's? Because they mention Ellie and Charles when Richard was taking Ben.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 2, 2009 9:19:26 GMT -5
Yeah, and Juliette ends up with the others too. How is that going to work? She didn't defect to them, she came from Seattle or wherever. How long had she been with them when the first plane crash happened? I wonder if the writers actually have this all worked out or if they are just winging it to a certain extent. I don't see how they can pull together anything that makes sense if they are going to insist that the Losties can't undo anything that has happened, yet they can do things that have not happened, like Juliette and Sawyer hooking up or the whole bunch of them even being there. Obviously they can change things, but it seems like the way it is supposed to be working is they can change things but not undo things which is a pretty thin line.
I forgot what happened to Daniel. He needs to come back and explain this time stuff better.
I still like the idea that Ben remembered all of it and knew who many of the plane crash survivors were when they landed on the Island. I dont really get why they would need him to forget everything.
And yes I do believe it is the same place as where the smoke monster came from.
Here is what I am wondering. When did the scenes with the soldiers happen? Was it the 50's? Because they mention Ellie and Charles when Richard was taking Ben.
I like the idea of Ben remembering everything too. I don't think we have any reason to believe anything more than Sawyer and Kate dropping him off is wiped out. Just because Ben has acted like he doesn't remember things about this time period doesn't mean he isn't faking it. And the way he said to Sayid last week that Sayid was a killer could suggest that he was getting that from personal experience rather than from Sayid's other history.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 2, 2009 10:46:32 GMT -5
In the first place, Ben is not Hitler. Sayid has probably killed as many people as Ben has, and tortured more, would you kill him when he was a little kid?
In the second place, to do so means embracing utilitarianism, which I don't, so no, I wouldn't have killed Hitler when he was a little child if I'd had the chance. You do not KNOW when someone is a little kid that they necessarily WILL grow up to do anything. Had Sayid not shot Ben and Jack not refused to help him, thus insuring he would end up with the others, Ben might have turned out fine. If Jack really wanted to make things better, he had other options including trying to make a positive difference in the twelve year old Ben's life, not coming back to the island at all, and he could start by accepting responsibility for not making better choices the first time he was on the island. It's not like the Losties are totally lacking in complicity in many of the things Ben has done - they allow themselves to be manipulated over and over and over when they should know better by now.
Also, Jack is a doctor, he has a duty to save lives, not to decide who has the right to live or die. Hubris is not a moral choice, it's a character flaw.
Both Sayid and Jack decided they have both the right and the foresight to decide whether a child's life will have any future positive value, and in doing so both of them helped make the very future they were trying to avert possible. Anyone without a gigantic ego knows that that is the likely result of that kind of arrogance, so they now share culpability in everything that results from it. And Sayid may actually grasp that eventually, but I doubt Jack ever will. Jack has no moral compass, he is all impulse, reaction and emotionalism.
Ultimately, Jack always wants to think he is so much better than everyone else, even (or especially) when he is acting under the exact same principles as them - because Ben, unlike Hitler or Manson, kills strictly for utilitarian purposes and that is the same principle Jack is acting on.
In this case, you DO know that Ben is gonna grow up to be evil. If you have the chance to take him out, you do it. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what any of them do or don't do now. Its been said over and over again that they can't change anything.
I guess I just fundamentally disagree here. If you have the chance to prevent evil from happening, you do it. Manson, Hitler, and Ben are all evil. If you're able to take them out before they do evil things, you do it.
If I have the chance to take Sayid as a kid, I may just do that to.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 2, 2009 11:51:54 GMT -5
In this case I don't think we do we know that, we're going on the best guesses of a sassy psychic and a mopey physicist, neither of whom seem 100% convinced themselves. And it hasn't been said they can't change anything, only that they can't undo what has already been done, they are changing things every day they are there. At any rate, even if that is how it actually works, Jack was not operating under the idea that he couldn't change anything - if he had been, there would have been no reason not to do the surgery. He clearly believes he has the power to change the future, and instead of choosing any of the possible ways to do that that aren't lethal to a child, he takes the cruel way out.
Your whole permise is that if you have a chance to prevent evil, you do it by killing, but that premise is based on knowing not only the distant future, but exactly how your action will combine with all the other millions of actions that take place between now and then, much less whether or not your killing of that person will prevent something equally as bad or worse from happening. In the Lost example, if Ben was killed as a child, how do we know Widmore doesn't end up in charge and much worse? Even knowing someone is going to be evil doesn't tell us what evil might exist if that person didn't.
So would you kill Sayid when he was a child? He was a torturer in the Iraqi army, I don't think we can say he hasn't done at least as much evil as Ben has.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 2, 2009 12:31:27 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I think they were. I couldn't keep the timelines straight before they started screwing with time itself, now it's really hard to remember what happened where and when and who was with which group when. Does anyone know of a quick and easy timeline anywhere online? A geneology sort of thing would be nice, too. Not just for families, but for relationships and alliances of all kinds.
Yeah, I noticed that too. They must have defected to The Others at some point, and now they're somewhat in charge.
I thought they were Others to start with. When we first saw them in the 50's weren't they with Richard?
I was kinda unclear as to whether they were apart of the beginning of The Others or the beginnings of Dharma. But yeah, I guess it would be The Others now that I think about it, seeing as how Dharma didn't arrive till a little later.
I feel like we're running out of time and that there's still sooooo much to be explained about the history of Dharma and The Others.
In this case I don't think we do we know that, we're going on the best guesses of a sassy psychic and a mopey physicist, neither of whom seem 100% convinced themselves. And it hasn't been said they can't change anything, only that they can't undo what has already been done, they are changing things every day they are there. At any rate, even if that is how it actually works, Jack was not operating under the idea that he couldn't change anything - if he had been, there would have been no reason not to do the surgery. He clearly believes he has the power to change the future, and instead of choosing any of the possible ways to do that that aren't lethal to a child, he takes the cruel way out.
Your whole permise is that if you have a chance to prevent evil, you do it by killing, but that premise is based on knowing not only the distant future, but exactly how your action will combine with all the other millions of actions that take place between now and then, much less whether or not your killing of that person will prevent something equally as bad or worse from happening. In the Lost example, if Ben was killed as a child, how do we know Widmore doesn't end up in charge and much worse? Even knowing someone is going to be evil doesn't tell us what evil might exist if that person didn't.
So would you kill Sayid when he was a child? He was a torturer in the Iraqi army, I don't think we can say he hasn't done at least as much evil as Ben has.
Very valid points. I was under the assumption that they couldn't change anything. I could've sworn Farraday said something along the lines of "What happens, happens."
You're right, you don't know what kind of other evil deeds might be done by other people if you do alter the future by taking out a person like Ben. That said, I'm still rolling the dice and taking him out if I have the chance. The things he's done/will do are clearly only in the interest of him staying in power (i.e. killing Locke twice).
I think all the Jack haters need to cut him some slack. He's clearly a broken man that's recently realized everything he believes in is a lie.
And yes, I'd probably kill Sayid as a kid. Same with Kate & Claire. They just get on my nerves.
Post by ChiefPemperToadWigginsky on Apr 2, 2009 15:43:56 GMT -5
No matter how much i do hate jack, i realize at the same time that he will be the major hero when everthing is said and done. He's a douche but will come around to believing the his true meaning, as long as Kate doesn't drag him down.
It doesn't matter how old kate is, I would kill her.
And yes, I'd probably kill Sayid as a kid. [glow=red,2,300] Same with Kate & Claire. They just get on my nerves.[/glow]
This I can get behind 100%. Not Sayid, though - his hair is too pretty. If he ever shows up with it ironed again, though, I might change my mind on that.
I'm not ready to cut Jack any slack though. He hasn't redeemed himself as a character in my book yet, and besides, I'm still enjoying despising him too much to quit just yet. I'm not even done laughing at the fact that both Kate and Juliette now seem to think that Sawyer is actually the better man - anyone ever see that coming last season? I can't quit hating Jack now, the fun is just starting! ;D
Woo hoo, I finally got to watch the episode so I can participate in discussion!! First off, I really enjoyed this episode, even though I don't really like Kate. I always thought she gave Aaron to Claire's mom, so I finally get to be right about something! And I feel we had some minor questions answered. Kudos to Hurley for the Back to the Future reference.
I can't quit hating Jack now, the fun is just starting! ;D[/quote]
AMEN to that! And I agree that we can't kill Sayid. The rest of him is just as pretty as his hair to me ;D
Even though I liked this episode, I'm still a Kate-hater. I'm always turned off by women that let men guide their lives (sorry, that's a whole different point) and that's what Kate seems to be doing. Going back to find Claire? Hardly. She's like Jack, she went back for selfish reasons, mostly Sawyer. And it also makes me happy to see that Sawyer is turning out to be the "better man".
Did Jack look super old to anyone else? I think he's been using the Just for Men on his hair... he should expand that to his sideburns.
Since I watched it online, I didn't get to see a preview for next week, but from your talk it sounds like it's going to be about Ben and Locke.
The conversations between Hurley and dude about time travel were classic. Great stuff. Next episode. YES. YES. YES. Can't wait to see The Island judge Ben. 
