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Post by viciouscircle on Apr 6, 2010 18:50:25 GMT -5
I agree as far as the love story goes, they do have the most authentic of the crash group. They never seemed to have that much to do with the rest of the story, though. I think that might change soon, though. They're my top candidates for Adam and Eve at this point, although I'm not really sure why.
With Widmore saying last week that letting MiB off the island would mean that "everyone we love will cease to exist" I don't think MiB is some big weapon of mass destruction who will annihilate the entire world. I think maybe the island reality (Jacob's provenence) would cease to exist, and they are showing the sideways reality (MiB's provenence) that would exist if he got to join the world. All that mirror stuff in the sideways reality makes me think of Jacob and MiB, the sideways reality and the island reality, as something more like mirror images of the same thing rather than a strictly oppositional good vs. evil.
I found this earlier today, and it made perfect sense before this episode. It makes even more sense after watching it. It explains the sideways-timeline. I think he's exactly right about this.
The Retcon Theory (Endgame theory) by Battousaiken
I call it the "Retcon" theory.
Under this theory, the Alternate Universe is a "mirror", a creation of MiB to trap the candidates so that he can escape the island.
At some point in the near future (island time), maybe in one of the last episodes of the series, MiB will find a way to trap the candidates in a simulated universe where 815 never crashed. He does this because in doing so, the candidates will have no knowledge whatsoever of the island, and thus will have no need or want to be Jacob's replacement, and if there are no replacements for Jacob, MiB can be free.
The reason why I call it the "Retcon" theory is because this is not really a new, alternate universe that has always existed parallel to the main one, nor is it one that diverged from the main one during jughead, making everything before that event the same in both universes. Nope. This universe is an artificial construct that begins right when the viewer starts watching it, meaning that everything that happened before seating on the plane is false, a construct, implanted memories. In short, a retcon created by MiB.
We see the Losties looking closely in the mirror and we see bleeding between the universes. This is probably because the AU was created recently and the people in it are not fully integrated to it. With some convincing, they might be able to return to where they belong (the island).
In LAX, we see Desmond briefly entering that universe close to the point of its creation, and I believe he is there to snap the Losties out of it, to help them get back to the island.
I believe MiB will fight Desmond and Widmore for that very reason; to prevent them from helping the candidates get out of the "mirror".
Thoughts???
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-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Post by ladyrach328 on Apr 6, 2010 21:36:23 GMT -5
Ooohh Eloise, I love how she still always knows whats going on
Another AMAZING episode. I was excited to see that both the sideways life and Island life are coming together! What is everyone's thought about Desmond's place and plans??
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 6, 2010 23:28:57 GMT -5
Some things about that retcon theory make sense, but I can't get past the existence of Charlie in that scenario - why would MiB put Charlie in it since he was already dead? It does feel like something CONSTRUCTED by someone, though, in that the sideflash stories all seem to be giving each Lostie what they (thought) they wanted. I think Eloise said Des seeing the list would be a violation, further suggesting this world was created and has rules. How does she know them? Maybe she created it as a temporary safe-haven for all the Losties until they can get their Leno together?
I loved this episode, finally an episode with alot going on. Penny and Desmond = awwww, little Daniel a musician but still adorkable, confirmation of the worlds bleeding, Desmond punching Widmore in the face, Eloise equally scary when she acts all sweet as when she dropped that act, Updike reference, Milton reference, return of The Constants as a theme (maybe) and Charlie! I don't know what it all means, but it sure was fun.
Great episode. Anyone who doesn't like Charlie now I will be happy to fight Friday morning at Bonnaroo.
Hahaha... I'm right there with you booth!
Charlie gets it man, and now so does Desmond.
And Airline, Desmond does know what needs to be done. That is why he immediately told Widmore, "Let's get started." Widmore thought he was going to have to explain to Desmond what needed to be done and tell him why...
Desmond will have to go through some EM radiation that will kill MiB in the end. Then Hurley will save the others and probably take over Jacobs position.
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Great episode. Anyone who doesn't like Charlie now I will be happy to fight Friday morning at Bonnaroo.
Hahaha... I'm right there with you booth!
Charlie gets it man, and now so does Desmond.
And Airline, Desmond does know what needs to be done. That is why he immediately told Widmore, "Let's get started." Widmore thought he was going to have to explain to Desmond what needed to be done and tell him why...
Desmond will have to go through some EM radiation that will kill MiB in the end. Then Hurley will save the others and probably take over Jacobs position.
That seems a bit simple. Seems Desmond is going to attempt to get everyone on the plane together. But what is he going to show them? Give them an MRI? Show them Faradays journal? Hope that when they all see each other they will remember?
And also, surely MIB is going to try to kill Desmond.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
That seems a bit simple. Seems Desmond is going to attempt to get everyone on the plane together. But what is he going to show them? Give them an MRI? Show them Faradays journal? Hope that when they all see each other they will remember?
And also, surely MIB is going to try to kill Desmond.
I don't think the writers are that complex... I think they are way more simple. But why would he try to get them all on the plane if that is precisely what MiB wants to do? MiB will try to kill Desmond, but I think the way he is going to do it is by EM radiation or whatever Desmond can sustain. That is why Widmore said he is the only weapon against MiB. Maybe that is how MiB will try to kill the candidates?
Anyway, I don't think the writers are going to pull something that far fetched on us.
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 7, 2010 9:44:37 GMT -5
If MiB wanted Desmond dead, he could have just had Sayid shoot him. I doubt Desmond's plan is to just kill Smokie, either. I think he will be working the Lostaways on both sides of the reality fence to get them to recognize whatever it is they truly love and thus integrate the realities. I have no idea how he is going to do this, but I doubt his part will be in any way intentionally violent (although I would love to see him smack Widmore some more.) And he better not get them all on a plane and crash it again, because that would be lame.
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
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I think that Widmore is going to use Desmond to stop the island from ever moving again. I've always thought it used the electromagnetic energy to do that. Didn't Widmore say something to someone (Sawyer? NotLocke?) about wanting to make the Island accessible to everyone? Or did I read that in someone's theory?
One more thing: The fact that eloise sent Daniel to the island to die makes a lot more sense now, seeing as the sideways universe must have been her hope in sending him there.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
I think that Widmore is going to use Desmond to stop the island from ever moving again. I've always thought it used the electromagnetic energy to do that. Didn't Widmore say something to someone (Sawyer? NotLocke?) about wanting to make the Island accessible to everyone? Or did I read that in someone's theory?
I dont remember anything about making the island accesible to everyone. All I remember is Locke saying the island doesnt need protection. That its just an island. And that they could get off and never look back.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Didn't Widmore say something to someone (Sawyer? NotLocke?) about wanting to make the Island accessible to everyone? Or did I read that in someone's theory?
I thought that Widmore wanted access to the island for himself, but noone else. He staged the fake wreck of the original Flight 815 so noone would come looking for it and stumble on the Island. Maybe he just wanted it FIRST so he can make it open to others and cash in, in which case using Desmond to hold it freaking still makes perfect sense.
I reallly want to know what Eloise meant when she said to Des, "Someone has clearly affected the way you see things. This is a serious problem. It is in fact a violation." I don't think she meant Charlie, since Charlie clearly doesn't know the rules and thus can't really violate them. Widmore is the one who sent him, and it looks like he and Eloise were working together to maintain the fake world, but now Charles has broken a rule of the partnership by messing with Desmond too soon. I hope she hits him in the head with an IV stand for it!
Didn't Widmore say something to someone (Sawyer? NotLocke?) about wanting to make the Island accessible to everyone? Or did I read that in someone's theory?
I thought that Widmore wanted access to the island for himself, but noone else.
The more I think about it, the more I think he might have said something like "I want to make sure no one else finds this place." Maybe it was NotLocke that said it though. Or I could be completely making it up.
Post by AgainstNunes! on Apr 7, 2010 14:28:19 GMT -5
Well Charlie had to be tied into it because of the "Not Penny" thing... but yeah, he was still killed off.
And Widmore knows the island is special, so if he didn't stage the wreck, others would have found out about the island, so perhaps he was protecting the island since he devoted his life to it. I don't think he just wants it for himself... he might have the island in his best interest.
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
A Thieve's Parade 2/24 Conspirator 2/26 Kevin Smith 3/11 Keller 3/17 Papadosio 3/18 JJ Grey 3/25 Bela Fleck/Edgar Meyer 3/26 Toubab Krewe 3/27 O'Death 4/11 Budos Band 4/22 EOTO 4/28 Summer Camp 5/6-29 All Good
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 9, 2010 8:58:37 GMT -5
OK, this is driving me crazy - why isn't Charlie having any detox symptoms in the sideways world? Shouldn't he be pretty sick by now? That further suggests to me that the sideways reality is flat-out fake, some kind of artificial manifestation of what the Losties each wanted - but it's what they wanted at the point they were on flight 815, not what they wanted at the point of the nuke blast. WTF.
OK, this is driving me crazy - why isn't Charlie having any detox symptoms in the sideways world? Shouldn't he be pretty sick by now? That further suggests to me that the sideways reality is flat-out fake, some kind of artificial manifestation of what the Losties each wanted - but it's what they wanted at the point they were on flight 815, not what they wanted at the point of the nuke blast. WTF.
I don't think it's been terribly long since he ingested the druqs on the plane... maybe a day at the most.
VC: my brain may not be functioning properly yet this morning, but I don't quite understand how you think the sideways reality is fake. I can't grasp the idea. Do you mean it's like a dream?
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 9, 2010 9:23:13 GMT -5
I thought he never took the druqs, was trying to swallow the bag but he choked on it and Jack heimliched them right back out. That would make it closer to two days at which point he should be a MESS. Even after one day it should be affecting him.
Not like a dream, more like an Eastern philosophy* style of consciousness manifestation, definitley not physical, but controlled and ordered to some degree by someone (MiB, Eloise, both) Like Danbird's Retcon theory, only with the Losties own consciousnesses actually being part of how it is constructed. Every person is getting what they wanted while they were on the plane, not while they were on the island, which makes no sense if the bomb caused the AU. Fishy!
I need coffee before I will have any chance of making sense here.
*Something akin to but not exactly this: "The metaphysical foundation of Hinduism, which is expressed in both the Vedas and the Upanishads is that Reality (Brahman) is One or Absolute, changeless, perfect and eternal. The ordinary human world of many separate and discrete (finite) things (which our mind represents by our senses) is an illusion."
Ok, I think I understand what you're trying to say VC (and now that I've had coffee). So it's basically their consciousness that's experiencing this alternate reality, not their physical bodies. Sort of like in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" when Desmond's consciousness was back with Penny... but his body was in the jungle.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 9, 2010 10:36:25 GMT -5
Yes! But I think there is someone deliberately making that happen, probably Eloise and Widmore. The two of them seemed like they were merely actors in the alt world, and if they created it that would explain why Eloise clearly knows what's going on and her statement that Desmond's awakening (for lack of a better word) was a violation. I don't think they inteneded it to be permanent, but Widmore violated their agreed upon timeline by sending Desmond early. Maybe that was because of Island happenings, maybe he just has his own agenda. It would explain the imperfections in the alt world - Jack's appendectomy scar, Charlie's apparent immunity to the effects of withdrawal. It would also explain why every single person on the plane is getting what I imagine they were wanting at that moment on the plane - Kate wanted to escape, Charlie wanted the band to be together, Sun and Jin wanted to be in love like they used to be, Locke wanted Helen back. Those are not the things they wanted when they were setting off the bomb, so if the bomb acted as some sort of wish-fulfilllment-alt-world-creation thingie, for the point in time that the fulfillment stemmed from to be the original plane ride and not the explosion, someone would have had to deliberately manipulate it, wouldn't they?
To confuse matters further, Desmond was wearing a wedding ring on the plane in LAX. He wasn't in the last episode. GYU@#!^*^%8NB&^$24583bd87t4b2.
Yes! But I think there is someone deliberately making that happen, probably Eloise and Widmore. The two of them seemed like they were merely actors in the alt world, and if they created it that would explain why Eloise clearly knows what's going on and her statement that Desmond's awakening (for lack of a better word) was a violation. I don't think they inteneded it to be permanent, but Widmore violated their agreed upon timeline by sending Desmond early. Maybe that was because of Island happenings, maybe he just has his own agenda.
I think it may be more Eloise than Widmore that's in control of the alt world, if that's that case. She was present the last time Desmond's consciousness was somewhere else. Maybe she is controlling it, but alt-reality Faraday will find out about it and help Desmond merge the two realities? ( Or -gasp- maybe that's why Eloise killed him?? So he couldn't help Desmond on the Island end of things??? )
Another thought, do you think Desmond snapped back to the Island time after he met Penny because she is his constant? I can't figure out how his consciousness travels back and forth between real time and alt time.
Post by viciouscircle on Apr 9, 2010 11:04:37 GMT -5
I have NO IDEA how Desmond's thing works, but Penny being his contant makes sense. I think you're right about Eloise, too. It certainly would not be wish-fulfillment for Widmore and Desmond to be so close. It would be more likely that Eloise needed something to do with Desmond and putting him with a doting Charles is her idea of a totally awesome joke. Real world Widmore is onto the game, though, so now he's fighting back?
I'm glad I have to go to work, otherwise my head would explode soon.
A Thieve's Parade 2/24 Conspirator 2/26 Kevin Smith 3/11 Keller 3/17 Papadosio 3/18 JJ Grey 3/25 Bela Fleck/Edgar Meyer 3/26 Toubab Krewe 3/27 O'Death 4/11 Budos Band 4/22 EOTO 4/28 Summer Camp 5/6-29 All Good
